I see people complain about it being too difficult or overwhelming, but I found that if you approach this FM as any other (Where you create a plan in your head, get most of the loot, build layout in your mind etc), you will not have fun here.
I started playing this like I would any big city mission, but quickly got overwhelmed, almost gave up even. But then when I did gave up and simply started ignoring entire rooms, I started having fun. A new level of fun. I got back to zones I ignored at first, I got curious if I could make it to places regular missions would consider an exploit. And every time I challenged Tolham, it rewarded me with acknowledgement of my achievement. This feeling is akin to finding a secret in a regular mission, but Tolham manages to have hundreds of secrets.
Lord Taffer achieved a very rare state of brushwork where you have to let go of any prior notions you had about Thief and let your intuition, curiosity and flow guide you. Don't try to cut up what you encounter into "zones" in your head and complete them one by one, you must embrace the Talham flow. This mission encourages you to skip parts of the level, ignore paths that you want to explore, if you try to account for everything you will be absolutely overloaded mentally and will have a bad time. Let go of your plans when you feel challenged, because in 3 hours you will find yourself right back where you doubted the author.
I want to call this a new sub genre of FM's because I have not seen anything close to the sprawling structures offered in Tolham.
From the interview posted on the site, Lord Taffer explains his creative approach with diving into the zone of building and letting it guide him, only stopping when running out of time.
This new subgenre offers amazing replayability. it encourages communication with friends and community about zones you've found or have missed. Like most I thought I explored everything in my 3 hours playing this, only to find out I was missing 3 thousand loot. This felt like I skipped 30% of the city, which was impossible, I swear I was everywhere. So I dove back in, and after 5 hours total I was still 1 thousand loot short. For the first time it felt like a proper measurement of prowess when people started posting their lootcount on the forums (Radar cheaters excluded) to a point where I wish Tolham had a leaderboard of loot found, so great is the challenge.
So I would say, keep it up Lord Taffer, don't listen to naysayers. You are onto something grandiose and novel with your creativity, make it complex, make it impossibly hard, reward every exploit and keep making worlds full of secrets. I feel like we've scratched but the surface of this style.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 5
star 10 / 10
I'm really glad you've opened our eyes, this mission is indeed a completely different subgenre that has absolutely never been done before. No matter how hard I try, I just... really can't think of any other mission that is set in a city section with optional hidden areas, occasional supernatural elements, lots of loot we can collect, and a vertically rich, non-linear, open design that supports the player's urge to explore all this.
Hm anyway, I wonder how we should call this brand new subgenre you helped us recognize. "City mission", perhaps? Just thinking out loud.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 0
I appreciate all the feedback and I won't stop building if someone compares my work as an AI work. I appreciate the critisism especially if it tells me what to improve in the future. I'm honestly glad there are people who enjoyed my FM! Keep on taffing everyone!
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 8
Yeah, Matt is off mark on this one for sure. You know what you created and people recognize its uniqueness. If people cant see it yet, thats on them.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 1
The very funny thing is I called the misson imaginative in the title of my review, and even said "the atmosphere is pretty unique". Strange, because if you read the AI "comparison" you had to read the rest of it as well.
Almost seems like saying anything, but borderline delusional level of praise about this mission is a total crime (regardless of how much stuff you praise at the same time). If it's because my final rating is not visible (yet), I gave the mission an '8' by the way, for it being a very solid one.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 0
Matt, in case you’re confused, most of the flak you’re getting is not really about your review, but rather your snarky comment.
You posted about how this mission was very unique. And then when someone else does the same thing, you sarcastically comment on it: “oh wow, it’s almost like a CITY MISSION!?!?! How wild and cray cray and unique.” (Paraphrase)
Honestly, how did you expect people to react to you being a condescending jerk?
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 1
Matt, I hear you, you have some good criticism in your review. Still, I must admit that I didn't like at all that sentence with AI comparison, felt like a low blow. I know no fan mission should be above the criticism, but to compare it as a work of an AI is rough. And, yes you had positive things to say too and I read the whole review and except that certain part I understand your points here. But exactly like Trefoilknot said, that kind of sarcasm is unpleasant really and tasteless. Thus, the criticism towards your comment.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 0
@trefoilknot: You mean what do I expect from posting a sarcastic comment targeting a - to word it politely - head scratching aspect of a review? I suspect that both of our questions are rethoric.
By the way, I actually adore quite a lot when someone goes for full enthusiasm towards an fm. If Mefix really loves Tolham and wants to support the author, then sure, cool - can get behind that. Unfortunately the review has cringe white knighting aspects trying to protect Tolham from... I'm not even sure from what. Two reviews here not blindly loving the mission? Or there were some other complaining people on TTLG, or the DromEd server. No idea, but I dare to say that you are wrong, it's not about my sarcastic comment.
By the way,
1. It's up to you, or anyone else to not like my sarcasm, admittedly subjective.
2. Would be quite entertaining to know who downwoted Mefix's nonsensical comment under my review, but decied to rather not get involved in this drama. Whoever it was I can't blame them, lol.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: -1
@Lord Taffer: I think that the question of the AI comparison rather falls into the perception of the reader. I'm not anti-AI, by the way - so much so, that I even forgot that someone could be, and interpret that part completely offensively. I do feel like that the mission, while very well implemented, has this aspect of an "uncanny consciousness" if that makes sense. This is pretty much connected to how I found it very intriguing the way you went from your first mission to this one. The author's ego and what it communicates through a creaton is something I'm always interested in - even if it's a Thief fm.
Should I have spent more time on wording the AI part of my reviews, so no one would interpret it as a synonym for artless and bad? Maybe. But then I guess Mefix's could have done the same, so one couldn't interpet it as cringe and sweaty white knighting. Some people find sarcasm tasteless and feel authorized to switch into personal attack mode (even though they criticize anyone they think doing that), some people find needless white knighting tastelless and feel authorized to switch into sarcasm.
By the way, if we have too many time to spare, we could go through the whole catalogue of the Thief Guild reviews and see how many people should re-edit their reviews.
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 0
You don't have to re-edit anything. I think this messaging can improve the way we see things and understand each others opinions and how we see things in many different ways. Let's go on and remember to keep taffing and keep Thief alive!!
thumb_up thumb_down Votes: 3
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